I'll get together with the other balance guys and talk about the Cynabal asap and get back to you all. We talked initially about the overlap between Angel and Minmatar and decided to try and make it work without making large changes. All three Angel ships are very popular (relative to other pirate faction ships) and generally regarded as 'fun' as far as I know, so risking negative impact with a bigger change didn't seem worthwhile.

I'll make sure we take another look though.

Please reconsider and remove the 90% web bonus from all serp ships or nerf it , removing it from the ashimmu is a great start, but don't leave it on the serp hulls.

In my experience 90% webs have two primary in game uses, that is to make gate camps inescapable because you cannot re-approach or it is extremely difficult in even the fastest ships, or they are used to slow ships down to the point where dreads track them so you can blap them. Neither of these mechanics are particularly desirable imo. Gate camping is pretty lame and so is dread blapping.

If you do want to keep a web strength bonus in game, how about this, keep it at 90% on the DD and then have the strength drop off on the vigi and the vindi, the bigger the hull the lower the strength of the web. That makes it possible to at least try to blap a DD on a gate and get out if you run across a camp using 90% webs and it nerfs dread blapping at the same time and gives you a better chance to re-approach if you run into someone camping with Vigilants for example.

So say 90% web on on the DD and 80% on the Vigi and 70% on the Vindi for web strength as figures I just pulled out of the air.

Nice gila nerf...
going from 793 dps with ogre / 751 dps with garde down to 636 dps

so a 157 dps NERF

big number stealth nerf there

Guess we should remove Lokis, Huginns and Hyenas as well cause someone might get slowed down

3 web loki on a single nano mwding Deimos takes you down to ~320ms

Single Web Vigi takes you down to 260

If we're using blap dreads and gatecamps as a reason why 90% webs are so incredibly broken then I'm not really seeing a strong argument

In EVE, yes, when its broken, everybody uses it, if everybody isn't using it, its probably not really broken and just strong in a certain niche of the game, that niche might happen to be where you're, but I'm sorry, EVE needs more ships that are strong in a certain area and weak in others, its called uniqueness and it makes the game better than everything being some generic hodgepodge of our standard stats.

Serpentis ships excel in certain areas, and only in those areas, in everything else you can do they're mediocre at best, which is good game balance.

They excelled in all areas mate, way to make an extremely bad counter argument.

so no ship is OP because ecm and damps exist, and no ship with modules that use cap is OP because neuts exist

Why shouldn't you have the same EC-300s/600s as other ships

A good suggestion was to make the Sansha ships have a 250% web range role bonus. I would have much preferred that and then keep them as strong laser shield ships which can web to improve their tracking at long ranges.

So basically fly an Ishtar

No update on changes yet, but I wanted to respond to a few more things.

On the Vigilant fitting (and similar fitting related comments) - as someone mentioned above, fitting a ship is not meant to be a matter of fitting all the biggest things. There are certainly times when the fitting allocation is too restrictive and we don't want that either, but for ship-fitting gameplay to be good it must include personalization/strategy/tradeoffs. That's what we're trying to accomplish.

Really? Care to share the fit you are using with the VIGI. I want to see that?

I would much prefer them to remove the web bonus then take 150PG away.

Read the forums more. It's been said, flat out, the 90% webs are NOT leaving the Serpentis Line. The goal of the pirate lines is to make all pirate faction ships AS good as the Serpentis line, not nerf them into the ground because you don't know how to keep range.

C
I still feel that this isn't enough to make this ship "interesting". It's just a fast warping Fleet Stabber/Scythe. Nothing notably "Special" about the Angel line up.

90% webs need to go away.

they have the effectiveness of 2.5 tech II webs........

Not cool.

EDIT: Rest of the changes are most epic.

No man, starting at 1km/s, 1 web brings you to 400m/s, 2nd brings you to 160m/s, third brings you to 64m/s.

90% web takes you from 1km/s to 100 m/s.

They have the effectiveness of roughly 2.5 t2 webs.

This is the VIGI fit I am currently using.

http://imgur.com/RVgfN3H

That leaves 0.5 PG

I don't have EFT so I am not sure how much I have to sacrifice to to keep 1600 plate and a 10mwd on that ship.

Dramiel, Ares, Taranis, Crow, Raptor, Crusader, Malediction, Claw, Stiletto, Atron, Condor, Executioner, Slasher, Vigil, and I'm sure there are probably more.

All of them are 400m/s+.. Daredevil is 384m/s Currently. Unless I made a mistake on one or two, which is possible.

Simple fact is, you can still kite it, or you know, not engage it.

Which all these OP webs, I'm shocked that I never see roaming gangs of Daredevils, Vigilants, or VIndi's just all over lowsec killing everything without remorse.. Guess they must hide when I'm flying around.

The Serpentis web bonus is extremely strong. We went into this balance pass thinking it was probably too strong and that we may need to tune it down. In the first Pirate Faction thread (the Frigates) I asked specifically for feedback on this bonus and how players felt about it. We also brought it up with the CSM during the summit.

The vast majority of feedback from all angles pointed towards an agreement that in certain environments this bonus was extremely powerful but that it wasn't having a negative effect on the game overall and we should leave it alone. I'm not sure if anyone remembers by now but when I casually mentioned changing this bonus during a Reddit AMA there was an outcry to prevent us from doing that at all costs.

Internally we are a bit divided even though we all agree it's one of the game's most powerful bonuses. I want to try and leave it because unique points of power like this one, as long as they aren't oppressive, are more interesting than moving everything towards a middle ground.

can rise please state clear the bonus in the OP?
since you said "destroyer speed", but destroyer warp speed multiplier is 4.5, which equal to 50% bonus in warp speed
but you also said "Cynabal at warp speed multiplier of 5" , 5 is the warp speed multiplier of frigate, which equal to 66.67% bonus

What's the reason CCP decided neutrons can't be fitted in vigilant? Give up pg penalty.

With the Machariel I'd rather see a +37.5% ROF for the roll bonus, drop one of the turrets and high slots and grant it another low slot. You're probably right on the Rattlesnake. I wouldn't exactly all the Nestor a "solid ship", because it's not all that effective for half the current price...

Aw manGǪ How about at least a hint or two to tide us over? Swap the shield resistance for an armor resistance bronus and reassign two mids to lows and you can have your way with the dronesGǪ PS. I still want the kinetic/thermal missile bonus.